Airing in five states:
If anyone has a good argument for how this could affect me, my marriage or my country in any way, I'm really open to listening.
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1 year ago
Wednesday, April 8, 2009
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I can't watch this video right now due to the lack of speakers on my computer here at school, but my guess is that it is on the whole 'gay marriage' thing. Am I right?
Let me know and I'd be glad to give an attempt at a thoughtful response.
yeah.
that video is more than a little extreme, but i am curious about a thoughtful back and forth -- something beyond "the government and the gays want to ruin my marriage"
I'll give it a watch tonight and respond. I have some thoughts already on the topic, but will wait until I've seen the video.
So, have you read the "talking points" on their website yet? I just did after watching the video. The claims on the video did surprise me and I think that the argument on the website is lacking in substance.
But I will say this: I do agree with the basic premise that children need both a mother and a father. Of course, divorce has a similar impact in that the children of the broken marriage lose one of those parents and I am not going to advocate banning divorce in society (though it is used way too frequently it seems to me).
In that vein, I would prefer to see our country not adopt/embrace principles or practices that are immoral--I don't think that this is helpful for the next generation as the sins of our day become the commonly accepted practices of tomorrow. This does not come from a belief that America is a "Christian nation" and should be governed as such, but rather out of a desire to see our culture aspire towards goodness, beauty, and truth as defined by the Bible. I know that will make me seem narrow-minded by some, but I guess on some issues, that's just the way it goes.
In a secular society, in this fallen world, there is a certain expectation on my part that things will not look or be in conformity with Christian ideals. I will not ever advocate a theocratic takeover by the 'religious right.' But I do hope that the government is able to navigate issues such as this one with discernment and wisdom and provide the services incumbent upon it to all citizens while not officially condoning certain practices. I think that this is where the push needs to come: trying to figure out how to give what is needed to all without discrimination while refusing to officially embrace the ideological position of any one group.
That's probably too idealistic on my part still, but that's my position.
What are your thoughts?
yeah-- the talking points were what made me ask for a better response.
ill respond longer in a bit.
by the way -- here's a sort of funny video of NOM auditioning people for that commercial. apparently everyone is a doctor in california, having to choose between their faith and their job because the gays want to marry:
http://vimeo.com/4060459
I don't know that I saw the video you intended as that is apparently being taken off of most sites, but I did see one audition clip--it was very humorous, especially one guy who seemed like he must have walked into the wrong audition--very stiff and unsure of himself.
I hope that this doesnt come across as mean or rude because it isnt meant as such...I am just saying what I believe on the subject such that an open and honest dialogue can take place.
Arbuckle wrote:
"This does not come from a belief that America is a "Christian nation" and should be governed as such, but rather out of a desire to see our culture aspire towards goodness, beauty, and truth as defined by the Bible."
This seems to be a contradiction to me. It is impossible to say that you dont think the country should be governed as a "Christian nation" and then say that legislation should be put in place that aspires towards goodness et al as per the Bible, IMHO.
My take on it is that this country is not "Christian" nor should it be governed as if it were Christian. I cannot expect someone who is without the Holy Spirit to hold to the same morals and values that I do, and to force my morals and values on to someone else through legislation is nothing short of oppression.
The reality is that homosexuality is an "out there" sin (no pun intended, or is there?), and as such is an easy target for "Christians." If you look at the "rules" of rebuking as well as the methods of the OT prophets you will see that it is all internal. The Bible doesnt ask us (and I would contend, tells us not to) judge those who are outside of the Holy Spirit, that job is for God and God alone.
If we are going to play God then let's go all out. Lets destroy the greedy and the gluttonous and dont forget the prideful and envious. These are sins that are running rampant in our nation, but they are seen as the american spirit and thus are a good thing, and Christians accept this rubbish. The greedy have affected my marriage more than "the gays" have (or ever could), and they are going to get away with it, because America runs on greed...but I know there is far less talk about this in Christian circles.
Let's turn our eyes inward to the Church. Let's try to make her presentable to her bridegroom, and in doing so we will show the non-christians that there is something different about the "followers of the way."
Evangelism is the answer to "see our culture aspire towards goodness, beauty, and truth as defined by the Bible," not the government.
Thoughts?
Scott, you didn't come across as mean or rude, but thanks for the preface--it does help to ensure your tone is clear on blogs.
I think that you're largely right and must have just read things into my comment that weren't actually there. I didn't call for specific legislation from the government in the part that you quoted, but rather for our "culture" to aspire towards Biblical principles. You see an inconsistency there whereas I see those principles/values to be universal because I believe the Bible is true. Therefore I can make a true distinction, in my mind at least, between a theocratic legislative system and a culture that aspires towards things that are truly good. I chose my words carefully on purpose as well--you'll notice that I didn't speak exclusively of any one kind of sin and therefore believe that what I said should be seen to cover things such as greed as well.
I agree: the church's role is to live lives of purity, beauty, and goodness and to seek to draw more people into herself. That will be what brings cultural change. I did not call for governmental legislation against any particular sinful lifestyle, but rather for a government to act in such a way as to not officially approve of things that are sin. So I don't see myself calling for government to act as God, and don't see it as hypocritical or inconsistent to hope for a government to be influenced by truly good values as opposed to bad values. The government does not act from a neutral base, but rather from the worldviews of those who operate within it. Therefore, some value system will influence the decisions of the government. I think that it is right to hope that the best values possible are employed and since those are seen in the Bible, I call them "Biblical values."
So, if you reread what I originally wrote I think that you will fail to find me calling for the government to act as the Holy Spirit judging those outside of the church. The state is responsible to God at the end of the day, and therefore my prayer for the state should be that it acts in accordance with wisdom as opposed to folly. My hope is that it will embrace truth and goodness, and not approve of that which is not truth and goodness.
Thanks for the response. Any further thoughts in response now?
sweet commentary!
sorry--i have actual thoughts, but then thailand caught on fire. but.. keep it up.
I kind of thought that you would reply that way, as your statement was very well written and skirted around legislation.
I think that the reality is that it is going to require legislation now. Gay marriage is starting to be legalized all over the US and is gaining momentum, there is a lot of politcal power being thrown both ways. The only way (in my mind) to stem the tide of this is through legislation. Also the fact that it differs from state to state makes it such that the federal government will want to have their say on it before too long. Anyways my point is that in the past no legislation was required due to the atmosphere surrounding the issue, but now legislation will be necessary one way or the other. And implied legislation (i.e. everyone aspiring to go to one "idea" of what is good) is still legislation, effectively. Also, as a side note the constitution/laws up to this point do not say that marriage is between one man and one woman, thus to truly make it unlawful a law will have to be put in place that does say this.
You state that the government doesnt operate from a neutral base, which I agree is true, however I dont believe that it is right. The way I think about it is thusly, if I were a Christian born and raised in Afghanistan, I wouldnt want the Taliban (not saying that the christian right is as bad as the Taliban, but some would aspire to it I believe) pushing there Sharia law onto me as the laws of their faith do not apply to me, as one outside of their faith. The fact that I wouldn't want this oppression to be placed on me means that I cannot want the oppression to be placed on others.
For the Christian community I think what it really comes down to is whether or not being homosexual is a choice. If it is a choice then maybe (just maybe, not definittely) it should be banned because people can change a choice, but if it isnt a choice then it should not be banned, as people cannot change who they are, genetically speaking. I dont know if it is a choice or not but I tend to think that it is not, my own personal belief.
Also I agree with Phil (presumably) that if gay people are allowed to marry it will not affect me or my family at all.
Quickly, because I have to go. Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I agree with you on several points. Legislation at this point is going to be necessary. What I was trying to get at and probably failed to do so was to advocate legislation that was neither "religious right" nor "homosexual agenda." Because I share your belief (what should be the American position) that government should be neutral and objective. That is the basis for my hope that a legislative solution could be given that would not officially endorse immorality but would not discriminate either. I don't know what that would look like exactly, but that is what I would hope for in our secular, democratic republic.
Finally, homosexual marriage will not affect directly my family, but for the reasons mentioned above, I believe that it would have a negative effect upon our society. As a conscientious citizen and Christian, my conviction is that I must do all that I can to look out for my society, and not just my home.
Arbuckle,
Just for my own curiousity, how do you think this will negatively affect society? My thought on the society front is that gay people are gay whether they can marry or not, so how will taking away the ban on their marriage change "society."
Once again I am just curious what your view on this is?
Thanks for the good back and forth...I have found that it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation on anything of this nature with most people, as it is so highly politicized and emotionalized that people cant stay objective, which is needed. Also, usually there is a lack of respect from one side to the other...I am happy that this is not the case here and that we have had such a meaningful, thought provoking conversation.
Thanks again,
Scott
Sorry for hijacking your blog phil...hope you dont mind
I hate blogger right now.
I just spent the last half hour writing a response, hit 'publish' and it didn't process. All of the text is now gone. I simply don't have the willpower to try again right now. Just know, Scott, that I had an amazing response . . . ha. Maybe I'll find the will later.
In the meantime, hey Phillip, how about jumping in?
i wrote this quickly, and didn't choose my words carefully, so pick away at will.
also.. these are just general thoughts. yall's discussion has become far more nuanced.
-- the church has institutionalized pride, greed, self-righteousness. but these have existed since the beginning of time. so.. i'm not sure institutionalizing non-violent "sins of the day" will affect the future of our society. in fact, seems like fighting polarizing, distracting battles like these get in the way of real societal progress -- if "progress" is the goal. human hearts are not going to be more depraved in the next generation. we might just become less good at hiding it behind false moralistic facades, which could be a good thing.
-- like scott said, i cannot hold non-christians -- those without the holy spirit -- to these kind of grey area sins. i dont think homosexuality is a choice for most (although i know you could say it is a choice to "act on" homosexual desires). so let's quit alienating them and learn how to engage. instead, these public arena fights makes the church about "defeating" "enemies" in legislative battles rather than reaching out.
i have more than one gay christian friend who have been driven to the brink suicide over the issue. anti-homosexuality is so ingrained that my friends have found the church to be utterly incapable of helping beyond saying "pray more." getting caught up in these kinds of fights does nothing to help that weakness.
-- i hate that the church gets pigeon-holed into this stuff. i know the church should not water itself down while striving for popularity. the bible promises that the church will be hated. so i could be wrong by thinking this..
but...
these fights just reek of pride and fear — that the white christian "american way" should look a specific way. it's easy to be have morality in black and white, but homosexuality is deeply, deeply grey (to me....). grey morality does not jive with self-righteousness that i think is the goal for a lot of people (obviously not talking about you, trey).
it seems like legalizing gay marriage would do nothing to promote homosexuality, and preventing legalization would do nothing to encourage people towards a righteous path. (instead.. from a purely progressive societal perspective, legalization might even promote stability, monogamy -- but that's a different debate)
so.. bottom line:
i just don't see how this does anything to promote the grace and truth of christ.
and i don't see how it will protect my marriage, or even hurt society.
maybe if there was a better debate, like this one. but this whole thing just seems so misguided, and reeks of self-righteousness. and i can't side with most of the leaders in this fight.
Alright, since Phillip has responded, I have been inspired to try again. Glad to have your input--I've been curious as to the particulars thought I had an idea as to the general already . . .
First, let me say that it seems I have been largely ignorant of the debate that has been going on publicly. I purposefully avoid what is televised for the reasons that y'all have already mentioned. I get my news via specially chosen podcasts and newspapers and therefore have not been shaped in my opinion by those who have taken such a strong stand on either side. So, I can only imagine (besides what I've seen in the video on this post) how those on the right have attacked this idea.
I don't group myself with the hard right, as I'm sure you've picked up and for the reasons that have already been stated. Nevertheless, I do disagree with a couple of points Phillip has made and that points to my answer to Scott's question.
While I certainly agree with the point that there are major sins that have permeated all of society and have even been in some ways approved by the Church, and am sympathetic to the desire to see the Church focus upon what her God-given mission is instead of being pressed into service by the right wing of American politics, I do believe that a society can be more or less godly in its cultural perspective. I'm not for hypocrisy and hidden sin anymore than you are, but I do think that the cultural acceptance of sins (whatever they may be) does have a real impact upon the worldview of the generation. I believe that countless examples can be given here. Romans 1 comes to mind.
Though humans have always been depraved and will continue to be on their own (apart from the saving work of Christ and the transforming work of the Spirit), I believe that the worldview which must be engaged by Christians can be more or less difficult to penetrate depending upon what society accepts or rejects morally. I understand the perspective evidenced by the citation of the bootlegging/mafia culture during Prohibition that points to the inability to truly legislate morality. At the same time, I believe that ideas really do have consequences. In giving official sanction to homosexuality, as a culture, we are saying that this is not a sin. Now, it is not the government's role to speak for God nor is it the Church's job to judge those outside of the Church, but to legislatively approve of something that God has condemned as sinful HAS to have a negative consequence upon society. If it does not, then sin is not as destructive as the Bible says it is. I think that all sin is powerfully corrupting and damaging--whether it is pride and fraud among Wall Street and DC, self-righteousness in the Church, or sexual immorality in society at large--from Hollywood to homosexuality.
But again, hear me on this: I'm not calling for legislative discrimination against homosexuality. My position, I believe, is much closer to yours than it is to those on the far right. I just think that it will have more of a negative impact than you will because of my belief in the power of sin to destruct and the power of ideas to transform.
Finally, on a more practical note, as I mentioned earlier, I believe that the presence of both a father and a mother are vital in the home. Without repeating my points earlier regarding my recognition of the many single parent homes we have in America, I do want to make a case against legislatively establishing that a family need not look any certain way in order for it to thrive. Our society rejects the idea that God's ways are the best ways for doing things. Our society believes that a marriage between two men or two women can offer the same kinds of blessings (for lack of a better, secular term) that a marriage between a man and a woman can offer. I don't believe that's true, and as such, believe that the more that kind of behavior is approved in our society, the more it will be practiced, and the more unhappiness will result. Also, our society believes that the family structure can include one parent, two fathers, two mothers, or a father and a mother, without there being any real negative consequence. Again, I have to believe that this is untrue since God has established one kind of family structure that utilizes the giftings and complementary natures of both a man and a woman working together.
I certainly grieve over the way that the Church has handled with such insensitivity and self-righteousness (particularly with the epidemic of other forms of sexual immorality coursing through the Church) those who have homosexual feelings, particularly to the point of driving some to suicidal thoughts. We are most definitively in the wrong for so living. At the same time, I would like to suggest that part of the reason for those feelings come from the destructive nature of sin itself. If the wages of sin is death, then as we live in sin we are heading towards death. That is true for the youth pastor who looks at pornography--he will certainly struggle with suicidal thoughts at times as he grapples with his own hypocrisy and depravity. That is true as seen by those men who have committed great fraud, have been exposed, and as a result have committed suicide as well. Sin is a serious and deadly force that we accommodate to our own peril.
What should the Church's role then be in this debate, in my opinion? I would very much like to be seen as actually staying out of the politics completely and providing an alternative, apolitical message to those who are concerned by this debate. Let the Church do as both of you have called for: live a humble life of loving self-sacrifice, calling out the sins within itself, and seeking to serve the lost as Jesus did who took sin so seriously that He allowed Himself to be hanged upon a cross in order to be killed by it so that He could defeat it for all time.
I forgot to mention in this version that I too have really appreciated the genuine back and forth. It happens too infrequently. So, thank you guys.
Scott--thanks for reading. I enjoyed the exchange.
all fair points. well-said.
i'll detail my thoughts on the "grey area" later -- but mostly because i almost believe god makes people gay, and that i'm not sure the OT is as clear about it as we think. it's more difficult for me to believe firmly in one way or another than any other sin.
but..scott's right.. sure the sin causes the despair..but i think more specifically for my friends it's the feelings of impossibility to please god. the feeling that god made himself clear about homosexuality as sin while also making it impossible for them to "be cured." living feels less important if you know for the rest of you're life you're going to fail in such a deep way, central way.
one of my friends believes his own homosexuality is sin. and he's not blaming his suicidal-ness on the church or anyone else. it's all guilt.. but to him the church just says "stop. change." where he feels incapable of it. he believes the holy spirit transforms, but feels like god is keeping him this way. he cuts his wrists.
the next guy just feels completely alienated, and chooses to live with it without making any decisive judgments to how sinful it may or may not be. he feels god made him this way, so god can live with it.
still another--biblical scholar on this issue, essentially--who firmly believes it's not. he's "married" to the guy. loves jesus.
i respect all of them (while realizing that i haven't done the reading/praying necessary to decide one way or another... if that's even possible or the point).
------
but.. concerning our current discussion, let's say it's clearly sin:
i still think fighting gay marriage does more harm than good, i guess, perhaps, because i don't see a societal cost. but i don't think we are even tacitly "condoning" sin by allowing others to partake in it, any more than we're admitting that Islam or Mormonism is truth by keeping those legal. really—besides the mother/father issue — what's the difference?
so i just don't feel like it's worth the alienation/risk of emulating the pharisees by demanding that society adopt a specific morality (i know you keep saying you're not talking necessarily about legislation.. but that's the public issue).
Phil,
I remember you telling the F-bomb about one of those guys before. He went to one of the gay camps to try to get cured right? Those stories make me so sad...God's grace is enough to overcome this sin...and that is what people need to here. They don't need to hear that they need to be cured, they need to know that there is no cure. We all struggle with sin. We need to be told that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and there is nothing we can do that will keep him from loving us, despite what the church says about it. Love them Phil (like I am sure you do), love them how Christ would love them. I will be praying for their despair, and that they can know God loves them no matter what.
The church can really make me angry sometime.
Thanks guys for this conversation, I really appreciate it.
Two last points of clarification, at risk of beating a dead horse here . . .
I will not be "fighting" against this legislation because, as both of you believe, there are better ways of response on the part of the church. So, while I do have a preference for what happens for the reasons stated above, it would not compel me to join the "God hates you" bandwagon. I will behave in the way I believe that Paul and the apostles would have done under the reign of the Roman emperors: "live a quiet life, work with my own hands," and seek to win the respect through love, service, humility, and personal purity of those outside the church.
And finally, I do understand the feeling of guilt and suicidal notions regarding God's view of my failings. I, as Scott seems to believe, simply feel that those feelings can be exacerbated by an insensitive and self-righteous group of people but is the common experience of all of us who struggle with sin and desire to live a life pleasing to God. Those thoughts are not limited to the experiences of any particular group of sinner.
Much love, guys.
sorry trey. didn't mean to keep tacitly implying that you're saying things youre not. my responses have been pretty scattered and not always "on topic".. which i know is frustrating. the original question was — give me a good reason why gay marriage could impact society.. and you did just that.
i know sin is sin is sin. but.. i do think, however, we have to recognize homosexual struggles as different on some level than, say, my own struggles with pride and greed and etc and etc.
sexual sin can obviously be deeply devastating for anyone. but homosexuals struggle with severe condemnation from friends, families, churches, society, etc. so when they feel like god's word reinforces all that, it just multiplies the psychological damages.
No apology needed Phil. I wasn't frustrated at all--just wanted to make sure that I had been clear in my comments. I appreciate your desire to be sensitive and discerning regarding this issue, as opposed to merely taking an ideological stand that 'feels good.'
Your question brought up a lot of stuff, and the conversation simply reflected that. I thought the conversation went well, even if we have come to different conclusions on some points. So, thanks for that.
last bit from me...
Trey,
I hope I dont come across as putting any of my frustrations on you. Because they were not meant for you AT ALL!!
Anyways, good conversation guys. I dont think the point of these conversations is ever to change somebody's mind, which we have clearly not done here, but to increase awareness of what other Christians think/believe and thus increase respect and love within the body.
Peace and Love,
Scott
Not at all, Scott. No worries.
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